11th (Lonsdale) Battalion cap badges (forum archive)

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Posted by plbramham » 29 Apr 2012, 15:52	plbramham General Global moderator Posts: 1369
There are a wide range and variety of Border Regiment badges. These are just selection of types I have been able to photograph. (These will have to be split into several postings due to attachment space) Most types of badges are faked, so watch for restrikes & copies – especially 11th Lonsdales. As a general rule, if it’s cheap think “is it genuine?” The Lonsdales badge was issued in silver and brass examples also exist, but there is some debate if the original issue was ever made in bronze? I’m not going to get into that here, but it is a common material for restrikes/copies/replicas/fakes, whatever you prefer to call them. Silver cap badge Reverse of silver cap badge. This example has been converted into a broach with a pin fitting Silver hallmark, on the back of the dragon’s wing, for London 1914, maker Sebastian Garrard. Cast line through the mark has been described as a possible sign of a fake. An “honest” white metal fake – nobody is going to be fooled by this! Brass copy

Posted by kerchi » 29 Sep 2012, 23:35	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
I would love an original one of these badges. How much did you pay for yours, assuming this is from your collection? The current silver one on ebay doesn't look as good as the one shown above as the letters don't seem stand out as well and it has a slightly odd hue to say it is silver unless the lighting was bad when the photo was taken. The silver one above looks superior in every respect and it is the one badge I would like above all others as my great grandfather was a Lonsdale.

Posted by plbramham » 30 Sep 2012, 09:43	plbramham General Global moderator Posts: 1369
Hi, I can't really put a price on my silver badge as it came in a lot with other 11th Btn stuff, such as the 1914 booklet of photos showing training at Carlisle. Spike has scans of that on his Lonsdales site http://www.freewebs.com/granatloch. Also the badge is damaged, (lugs/slider removed when converted to broach, small split in silver) but let's say I got a very good deal , much more than silver scrap price, but I didn't risk a wild price in case it wasn't genuine. In fact it was the booklet I was really after, (and bid accordingly with a bit more for the badge as a "bonus" - you couldn't see the halmark on the seller's photo), but had to buy the lot to get it. Glad I did! I was in touch with a badge collector /dealer last year who estimates the cost of a decent silver Lonsdale badge with good provenance is currently in the region of £1500- £2000!!! (Mind you he also quoted a price of £250- £300 for a brass one, so his price may be a bit high) One thing I certainly agree with him is that now is the time to buy as in 2014 - the centenary of the start of The First World War, militaria prices will go sky high. (Also, especially for battalions like the Lonsdales, 2016 will be another peak for the centenary of The Somme) I've seen that silver replica on e bay. It may be the only chance you have of getting a reasonable representation of a Lonsdale badge in your collection. For £25 it is a decent copy - there's probably £5 of silver scrap in it. Cheers Paul.

Posted by kerchi » 30 Sep 2012, 17:12	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
plbramham wrote: I was in touch with a badge collector /dealer last year who estimates the cost of a decent silver Lonsdale badge with good provenance is currently in the region of £1500-£2000!!! Ok, I wasn't expecting it to be that much! Looks like I'm getting a copy after all. Never mind, it's not the end of the world but it would have been nice to have an original. I think I'll have to get as many badges as I can before 2014 because if the prices are going sky-rocket for the centenary I am going to have a bit of a wait before I can continue collecting again. plbramham wrote: the centenary of the start of The First World War, militaria prices will go sky high. (Also, especially for battalions like the Lonsdales, 2016 will be another peak for the centenary of The Somme) It does irk me a little that so many people are going to be cashing in on this momentous period and I bet half of them don't even care about the importance of the centenary and what it means to so many people.

Posted by plbramham » 01 Oct 2012, 11:08	plbramham General Global moderator Posts: 1369
kerchi wrote: It does irk me a little that so many people are going to be cashing in on this momentous period and I bet half of them don't even care about the importance of the centenary and what it means to so many people. I know what you mean Chris. Perhaps people who are enthusiasts ought to store any "spare" items they have and wait to sell them until 2014 so that they get the inflated prices for their stuff in order that they have "militaria pocket money" at the going rate at that time, because they will have to pay the inflated prices if there's anything they want then. (Mind you, the predicted rise might never happen, remember all the hype and inflated prices for the 2000 Millenium celebrations?). The thing that really annoys me is how much the greedy ungrateful French will be making out of it ( Let's face it, they've never really liked us ever since Bonnie Prince Charlie, and certainly not since Napoleonic times). The last time I visited the battlefields in 2004 the hoteliers and guest housekeepers were already rubbing their hands and increasing their prices for the period of 90th anniversary of The Somme (and they were already pretty fully booked - two years in advance). I hate to think how much they'll be making out of the centenary years. (Mind you if the French are busy thinking about that, perhaps it will divert their attention from building motorways over our CWGC cemeteries!) Paul.

Posted by kerchi » 11 Oct 2012, 21:58	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
plbramham wrote: I've seen that silver replica on e bay. It may be the only chance you have of getting a reasonable representation of a Lonsdale badge in your collection. For £25 it is a decent copy - there's probably £5 of silver scrap in it. I decided to go for both the silver and brass copies of the Lonsdale Badge out of the last of this month's ebay budget (well I'm making sacrifices elsewhere to be able to get them but it will be worth it). Like you said it could be my last chance to get a half-decent representation of a Lonsdale badge in solid silver, and it would be nice to have the brass one to go with it.

Posted by kerchi » 20 Oct 2012, 14:43	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
I'm beginning to wonder where the badges I bought are. Paid for them on the 12th October, the seller says he posted them 1st Class Royal Mail on the 15th and no sign as yet Will have to contact the seller again on Monday if nothing turns up.

Posted by hussar1000 » 18 Nov 2012, 12:48	hussar1000 Staff Sergeant Registered user Posts: 131
The third image down showing hallmark.....is this an example of a fake? It doesn't state that it is a copy but I was informed by a reputable collector/dealer that a tell tale sign is a cast mark through the hallmark. Also the hallmark looks raised and not stamped. Compare it to the one above. I don't mean to throw a cat amongst the pigeons but if it is a copy then it should state so to assist others who are intending to purchase one.

Posted by plbramham » 18 Nov 2012, 17:45	plbramham General Global moderator Posts: 1369
hussar1000 wrote: I was informed by a reputable collector/dealer that a tell tale sign (of a copy) is a cast mark through the hallmark. You are quite correct to raise this and I have edited the caption accordingly. Opinion seems divided on whether the badges with a line through the mark are later fakes or just examples from a different batch. It's a matter of opinion, so I'd say if you're not comfortable don't buy it (or settle for a decent quality reproduction which is honestly being sold as a copy, and priced accordingly). Paul.

Posted by kerchi » 18 Nov 2012, 21:15	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
I did eventually get my brass and silver copies through the post about two weeks after I paid for them. The ones I bought are exactly the same just made from different metals; the silver one with the hallmark on the back is clearly a copy but a nice one all the same.

Posted by BorderRegiment3095 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:50 am	BorderRegiment3095 Sergeant Registered user Posts: 55
It's interesting as the measuem in Carlisle actualy reproduced many silver badges with the same hallmark! I wonder how many people have been conned by these badges!

Posted by plbramham » Fri May 10, 2013 4:50 pm	plbramham General Global moderator Posts: 1369
On the subject of how expensive original Lonsdale badges are: Well I've just bought a damaged brass one (bottom scoll with "Border Regiment" is snapped off and missing - see photo) I paid the "massive" sum of just £3.22 plus £3.87 postage (from Canada) for it! I guess no-one bid on it because 1) It was a foreign dealer - I've no problem with that as I've found sellers from USA & Canadians are great - sometimes faster than from the UK, and 2) of course it was damaged - Well I couldn't afford a perfect one, plus the thing is, you know it's genuine because who would fake a broken one and even go to the trouble of faking "patina" on the break!? I'm happy - £7.09 is a lot cheaper than an intact restrike and it's an original! Paul P.S. Yes, you've guessed - it was an e-bay purchase.

Posted by kerchi » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:09 pm	Kerchi Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916.
Here's some photos of the two Lonsdale Cap badges I bought a few months ago from ebay; a silver and brass copy....can't afford the real deal unfortunately. Below are the silver copy photos. They might look like brass in this light with the red background but it is actually silver. And here are the brass copies.