1st Bn War Diary Oct 1918 to Feb 1919 (forum archive)

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File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:39 pm
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Muchtodo
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Good afternoon,

Does anyone have the movements and actions for the 1st Battalion, The Border Regiment from 1 Oct 1918 until the cessation of Hostilities please? If not, would someone kindly let me know where I can get hold of these please.

My gt grandfather Samuel Sidebotham (Pte, 38926) transferred into this unit, from the 8th Battalion, on 2 Oct 1918 and spent the rest of the War with them.

Thanks,

Jarrod.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by plbramham » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:37 pm
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Hello Jarrod, The full handwritten original 1st Btn War Diary from Feb 1918 to April 1919 is available to download as a PDF from the National archives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline [documents online is now closed and replaced with http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk]

The Catalogue ref no is WO/95/2305 and I think they charge about £3.50-£4.50 for the download. You should find everything in there.
Best Wishes, Paul.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:13 pm
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Thanks a lot Paul!
File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:50 pm
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Kerchi
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I had transcripts of the 1st Battalion war diary on the wiki but not for the period you are after. I have 1915, 1916 and some of 1917.

I am glad the NA decided to make available the whole thing as a download instead of a month at a time for £3.50 a pop. I wanted the 11th Battalion war diary and that wasn't available. A Border Regiment enthusiast (whom unfortunately we haven't heard from in a long time) managed to get the NA to scan the whole diary for a fee of £560 (I think); he very generously donated the whole diary to me.

Col. Wylly's book The Border Regiment in the Great War has the actions of all battalions and he used the war diaries to write it. You might find that interesting to read if you get a copy. They are reasonably priced.

Anyway, I hope you find something in the war diary you are looking for.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:56 am
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Chris,

Many thanks, I see where I need to go next. I have the a unrelated question that you may be able to help with please.

We have two Military History Sheets for Samuel Sidebotham, showing in which Theatres he served and the dates for this service. Now these contradict each other! How and why could this happen?

Thanks again,

Jarrod.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by plbramham » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:39 am
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Chris,

Documents ordered from The National Archives are only available to read online for a month, but during that period you can save the downloaded PDF onto your system or a disc, hence you can keep whole file for future reference, rather than just printing off a few hard copy pages relevant to your research at that time, Paul.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:48 pm
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Cquote1 black.svg plbramham wrote:
Chris, Documents ordered from The National Archives are only available to read online for a month, but during that period you can save the downloaded PDF onto your system or a disc, hence you can keep whole file for future reference, rather than just printing off a few hard copy pages relevant to your research at that time, Paul.

This I already know, although I haven't personally used the NA for a long time.

I think there might have been a misunderstanding with regards to my previous post. When I used the NA to download war diaries, they only had one month worth of war diary available per download; if I wanted to download a whole year I would have to download 12 separate months worth of diary at £3.50 each. Getting the entire war diary today in just one download is a heck of a lot cheaper (that is of course they have the one you want already digitised).

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:51 pm
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Cquote1 black.svg Muchtodo wrote:
We have two Military History Sheets for Samuel Sidebotham, showing in which Theatres he served and the dates for this service. Now these contradict each other! How and why could this happen?

Which parts are a contradiction? Are they different Military History sheets or is one a continuation of the other with updated information?

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:52 am
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Chris,

The dates and locations are different. Am I able to attach these records to posts on the Forum?

Jarrod.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:20 am
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Yes, you can, by using the 'upload attachment' tab under the text editor window. If you can, make sure the resolution is quite high so it easier to read.
File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:25 am
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Chris,

Right, thanks for that, I have now attached them, I hope that you can read these and your thoughts are most welcomed please!

Regards, Jarrod.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:55 am
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Jarrod,

I will have a look after work (got to shoot off now) and see how they conflict. If anyone else figures it out please jump in Twemoji 1f609.svg

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by kerchi » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:00 pm
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Who died 1st July 1916.
Jarrod,

OK...............I have had a look and there are a couple of things I have thought of (with a little help from a colleague at work). Please bear in mind that I haven't done any research on, or generally looked into, service records before now so the following could be way off even coming close to correct.

At first glance I noticed is that there are some discrepancies, as you mention, in the dates and only two are the same on both sheets, that being 24/5/18 and 23/5/18. I will call the sheet that starts in 1913 sheet 1 and other sheet 2.

Sheet 1 appears to be the main record between them, however, as sheet 2 contains extra dates that are not on sheet 1, it seems that these extra dates provide further details as to where he was between the 24/5/18 and 25/10/18 on sheet 1. The sheet maybe wasn't updated in a while and even though it says he was in France, in reality he had been in France, then gone on leave and then went back to France again in the space of four months, but this isn't shown on sheet 1.

This led to me thinking if such (or similar) documents were kept at regimental, divisional or brigade HQs whilst in France so that such information could be updated regularly on an additional sheet (one for away, one for home) but then this would lead to security risks (if HQs were captured by the enemy they would know soldier's military history) and also it would lead to logistical nightmares (as paper weighs a lot and moving thousands of soldiers documents from place to place just wouldn't work) especially as in WW1 horses were very much the dominant vehicle not the motor.

So, was his military history sheet somehow misplaced at some point by the clerk or clerks (as the handwriting suggests at least two different people adding the information) back in Regimental HQ in the UK, hence the two apparently contradicting sheets trying to work out where he had been and when. Or, every time he went home his records were updated, but haphazardly.

There are too many 'maybes' to be certain. At one point it looked like sheet 1 might not even belong to him, but the second date that appears on both is 23/5/18, so I went back to sheet 1 again.

On sheet 1 he was home for 2 years 203 days between 2/11/15 and 23/5/18; that is very long time be home so unless he was in a severe accident and spent 2 half years recovering, this can't be right. However, sheet 2 says during the time he was supposedly 'home' for 2 half years he was in fact home, then in France and back home again. It looks like these discrepancies are too obvious to be discrepancies (after looking at it a few times). If you look, the dates on sheet 2, to me, have been included in his military history sheet because sheet 1 wasn't accurate enough, most likely because it wasn't updated regularly with 'up-to-date' information.

So, after all that:

1. the first three lines on sheet 2 is showing in more detail where he was on sheet 1 between the dates 2/11/15 - 23/5/18 on line 3 and
2. the last three lines on sheet 2 is showing in more detail where he was on sheet 1 between the dates 24/5/18 - 25/10/18 on line 4

There are a couple of other discrepancies but generally speaking the dates DO MATCH UP and sheet 2 provides an additional and more accurate desciption of where and when he was for those two different dates.

Hope this clears things up a little.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by IanT » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:53 am
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The two sheets are from separate documents although the image numbers are close because they were filmed one after the other. The first sheet above is from the second document, being marked on the front page as Duplicate. The second sheet is from the first document, when he attested for the Royal Ordnance Corps with no. 022664 on 5th September 1916. The second document, the duplicate, has the number scored out and replaced with 38926, and the regiment is replaced with Border. In both cases his service starts from 5th September 1916, but he had previously served in the Lancashire Fusiliers (Territorial Force) which may explain the earlier dates.

The documents indicate he was transferred to 3rd Btn Border Regt on 25th January 1918, then the 8th Btn on 25th May 1918 finally 1st Btn on 2nd October 1918. Ian

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:52 am
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Chris and Ian,

That is great stuff, many thanks, I feel much clearer in my understanding now.

I have the War Diaries for the 8th Battalion from May and June 1918, am I able to pop these on the Forum, or offer to email to Forum Members who want them?

Thanks again, it would be nice to give something back!!

Jarrod.

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by spike » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:56 pm
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Have pm'd you Jarrod.....

re the diaries....

File alt font awesome.svg Posted by Muchtodo » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:58 pm
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Thanks for all your help, I have now downloaded the 1st Battalion's movements from June 1916 until the end of Hostilities, some really good reading in there!

Kind regards,

Jarrod.