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 Posted by plbramham » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:46 pm
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 General Global moderator Posts: 1369 |
| Anyone with documents, medals, or other items relating to early Border Regiment soldiers with four digit numbers may find these tips useful that I’ve picked up when researching some WW1 soldiers who joined as regulars before WW1.
Using the Border Regiment page: 1st and 2nd Battalions, The Border Regiment from the excellent British Army Serial Numbers website: http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/ (updated last week - January 2013) you can roughly gauge which month and certainly exactly which year a pre 1914 soldier joined the regiment by looking at the examples of numbers which give the enlistment date of the owner of that number . From that page you can see that no 9893 joined on 4th January 1911, so you can safely assume that many, if not most (I refuse to say all as there are bound to be exceptions) men with four figure numbers will be on the 1911 census. (Either as a regular solider in barracks, or as a territorial living at home.) With the help of Mr Deacon I have established that 1911 census records are available on-line (through Ancestry etc.) for 2nd battalion at Martinique barracks, Bordon, UK, and 1st battalion at Sale barracks, Rangoon, Burma. These are very useful because they give the soldier’s full Christian name, his age and rank in 1911, and most importantly his birthplace (bit of an eye opener for those who assume that almost all Border Regiment recruits came from Cumberland, Westmorland and the Borders!) The census lists are not alphabetical, (that would be asking too much!) and do not have serial numbers (but if you are reading this you must already have the man’s number?) Not all 1st & 2nd Btn men will be on these lists as some would be on leave or posted with detachments or companies away from the barracks on the date the census details were taken. Also of course, some men with four figure numbers would have left the regiment (or died!) before 1911. To find the census you will need examples of men from the relevant battalion to enter in a search which I will provide here:
(I'm afraid that I do not have an example of a 3rd battalion man in 1911 to find the census for the home service- depot barracks at Carlisle Castle - can anyone provide one?) Of course 4th & 5th Btn men were territorials ( who did have four digit numbers), hence "part time soldiers" living in their own homes not in barracks, who would have filled in their census returns with their home addresses, occupations, family details etc. When you find Trent or Thorpe’s 1911 census page, you can then scroll backwards and forwards through the pages to view the rest of the men in the barracks on that date. Incidentally, I’ve noticed very popular men’s names around this period are “Royal names” like George, Albert, & Edward, also Frederick & Reginald, plus the combination of “John Thomas” – perhaps the latter was the inspiration for the gamekeeper’s name in “Lady Chatterley’s Lover"? Hope this is useful, Paul. |
| Posted by mrdeacon » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:35 pm
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.png) Colonel Registered user Posts: 706 |
| Spike and Chris if you want to see the list let me no and I will send you them. If anyone else has Dropbox I will gladly send you them has they are quite big files.
Mike. |
| Posted by kerchi » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:14 am
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 Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916. |
| I wouldn't mind a copy please Mike.
Thanks |
| Posted by kerchi » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:06 pm
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Field-Marshal Administrator Posts: 2160 In memory of John Bardgett (15309 L/Cpl.) 11th Border Regiment Who died 1st July 1916. |
Thanks for the files Mike, picked them up (and a few others you have shared) from dropbox today 
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| Posted by mrdeacon » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:55 pm
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Colonel Registered user Posts: 706 |
| Hi Paul,
Is there any way we can look on Ancestry to find any 3rd Bn, what about adress could we put that in, what would be the year 1890, 1901 or 1911. Mike. |
| Posted by plbramham » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:31 am
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General Global moderator Posts: 1369 |
 mrdeacon wrote:Is there any way we can look on Ancestry to find any 3rd Bn, what about adress could we put that in, what would be the year 1890,1901 or 1911. I suppose the obvious one to suggest would be to try Carlisle Castle - the Depot & HQ address?, (but perhaps that's too easy and too good to be true if it worked!) I guess there must have been lists of soldiers living in the barrack blocks - Alma block etc, probably in all three census records- 1891, 1901, 1911. However, I wonder if the 1881 census was taken after the amalgamation of the 34th and 55th to become The Border Regiment? If it was after the Borders were founded there should perhaps be some men who would have very early numbers included I would think? However, of course their serial numbers will not be on the census form which is a civil document listing the names of the population on a certain date at a certain place, rather than any sort of than a military form (like a muster roll) which would include service details. Census form do however use ranks, as I suppose that is taken as being the title for your name, just as you would write say, Dr. Smith or Councillor Smith instead of Mr Smith. |
| Posted by IanT » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:07 pm
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Major Registered user Posts: 252 |
| On findmypast you can search by address. For the 1911 census if you then enter just the city and county names you get a list of streets and 'other establishments'. One of the latter (which are not listed by street) includes the Castle and from which you can see the list of officers and men present at the census. The officer commanding was Major R O C Hume. A number of 3rd Border men are listed. Wives and children living at the Castle are listed separately. Ian |
| Posted by mrdeacon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:03 pm
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Colonel Registered user Posts: 706 |
| Found that chap Ian cheers but only one more after that.
Mike. |
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| Posted by IanT » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:53 pm
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Major Registered user Posts: 252 |
| Mike, not sure how you'd do an address search easily on Ancestry. On findmypast there is the specific option to do this. However if you search on Ancestry for George Ernest Beaty-Pownall born 1878 Campbelltown Argyllshire, he is a captain and the first named in the list of officers & men. Best search is just to use George Ernest Pownall on Ancestry & this will get the hit top of the list. Bizzarely using his full double-barrelled name to search on throws up a Mr Beaty-Pownall in Hampshire!! Ian |
| Posted by mrdeacon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:25 pm
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Colonel Registered user Posts: 706 |
| Thanks Ian have found them cheers mate.
Regards Mike. |
| Posted by mrdeacon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:38 pm
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Colonel Registered user Posts: 706 |
Whilst looking for George sadly i see that he died.
Son of Lt. Col. G. A. Beaty-Pownall and Susan Beaty-Pownall. His brother Thomas also fell. |
| Posted by CockneyTone » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:36 am
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Lieutenant-Colonel Registered user Posts: 441 |
| I am assuming that this chap is 'one in the same' as Lieut Beaty Pownall who served with the 1st Border's during the Boer War? Anybody confirm this please?
There is a picture of him in The Border Regiment in South Africa! |
| Posted by IanT » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:25 am
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Major Registered user Posts: 252 |
| I can't find a reference on findmypast which has some Anglo-Boer war records. In WW1 he was MiD a couple of times. Another Beaty-Pownall, Thomas Trelawny, also in the Border Regiment, died in 1917. He was in 3rd Border attached to 2nd Border when KIA on 24th March 1917.
Another possible relative, Pamela Beaty-Pownall, was a sister in the Queen Alexandra's Reserve at 6, General Hospital, and was evacuated after 1st June 1940. |
| Posted by CockneyTone » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:44 am
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Lieutenant-Colonel Registered user Posts: 441 |
| I have had a look at the Medal Rolls for the Border Regiment in the Boer War and it looks like the same chap as he is shown with initials 'G E'!
He is shown as qualifying for the Queens South African medal but cannot find him on the Kings South African! |
| Posted by IanT » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:01 pm
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Major Registered user Posts: 252 |
| Almost certainly him. He's a Lieutenant with 1st border in the roll. Ian |
| Posted by CockneyTone » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:45 pm
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Lieutenant-Colonel Registered user Posts: 441 |
| He certainly packed a lot into his 41 years!
Hoping to be on the Western Front before Spring so will try and visit him to pay my respects! |